Sin and the need for grace
- F08.1 Real fall; death and corruption passed to all (high)
- F08.2 Grace precedes the beginning of faith (Western conciliar) (medium)
- F08.3 All have sinned, Christ alone without sin; Augustine reserves the question of Mary’s actual sins out of honour (high)
From the study it came from: Agree on a real fall; Scripture's 'condemnation for all' sits closer to the Western fathers' emphasis than the Eastern one.
From the study it came from: Agree that grace comes first; diverge on predestination, where the fathers were divided among themselves.
Two separate measures, shown side by side; neither is combined with the other (confidence-weighted, out of 4; counts show how many of this doctrine's 3 questions each rests on). This doctrine is first-order (tier weight 3). How scoring works · Scripture and tradition · Glossary · Every score with its citation
Closeness to Scripture
Closeness to the fathers
Charts: closeness to the fathers by question, and timeline
- c. 180 Irenaeus F08.1
- c. 335 Athanasius F08.1
- c. 415 Augustine F08.2
- c. 415 Augustine F08.3
- c. 426 John Cassian F08.2
- 1546 Trent V Catholic
- 1547 Trent VI Catholic
- 1577 Formula of Concord Lutheran
- 1646 Westminster Confession Presbyterian
- 1672 Confession of Dositheus Orthodox
F8 · Sin and the need for grace
All are sinners, cannot save themselves, and need grace (against Pelagius).
Tier: First-order (scoring weight 3). How the tiers were set: theological triage. Site structure: structure.
Questions
- F08.1 The fall (was
original-sin/O1) - F08.2 Grace before faith (was
salvation/S1) - F08.3 Have all sinned, Christ alone excepted?
Verdicts and trace
F08.1 · The fall
| Question | Verdict | Confidence | Reasoning | Key sources | Scripture (benchmark) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| F08.1 | Real fall; death and corruption passed to all | High | F08.1.1 · F08.1.3 weighing | irenaeus-osn-s1 · athanasius-osn-s1 | F08.1.4: high |
F08.2 · Grace before faith
| Question | Verdict | Confidence | Reasoning | Key sources | Scripture (benchmark) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| F08.2 | Grace precedes the beginning of faith (Western conciliar) | High (W) / medium | F08.2.1 · F08.2.3 weighing | augustine-sal-s1 · john-cassian-sal-s1 | F08.2.4: high |
F08.3 · Have all sinned, Christ alone excepted?
| Question | Verdict | Confidence | Reasoning | Key sources | Scripture (benchmark) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| F08.3 | All have sinned, Christ alone without sin; Augustine reserves the question of Mary’s actual sins out of honour | High | F08.3.1 · F08.3.3 weighing | augustine-f08x-s1 | F08.3.4: high |
Post-750 development
Which of this doctrine’s questions each tradition stays closest to, or departs from. Each row links to the tradition’s notes.
| Tradition | Closest to the fathers on | Departs or sharpens on | From |
|---|---|---|---|
| Catholic | F08.1 | — | original-sin |
| Catholic | F08.2 | — | salvation |
| Orthodox | — | — | original-sin |
| Orthodox | — | F08.2 nearer Cassian than Orange | salvation |
| Oriental Orthodox | F08.1 | — | original-sin |
| Oriental Orthodox | F08.2 | partly F08.2 | salvation |
| Lutheran | F08.1 | — | original-sin |
| Lutheran | F08.2 | — | salvation |
| Anglican | F08.1 | — | original-sin |
| Anglican | F08.2 | — | salvation |
| Presbyterian | F08.1 | — | original-sin |
| Presbyterian | F08.2 | — | salvation |
| Reformed Baptist | F08.1 | — | original-sin |
| Reformed Baptist | F08.2 | — | salvation |
| General Baptist | F08.1 | — | original-sin |
| General Baptist | partly F08.2 | — | salvation |
| Anabaptist | F08.1 | — | original-sin |
| Anabaptist | partly F08.2 | — | salvation |
Origin
Plan, overall verdict and verification status of the former original-sin category (shared with the other doctrines that came from it)
Original sin
Method and conventions: docs/conventions.md. Reasoning: original-sin reasoning.
1. Plan
Questions: O1 the fall; O2 inherited guilt vs. inherited corruption; O3 Rom 5:12 (ἐφ᾽ ᾧ); O4 free will after the fall, Augustine versus the East. Sources: Irenaeus AH V.16; Cyprian Ep. 58; Athanasius, Inc. 4; Chrysostom, Hom. Rom. 10; Augustine, City of God XIII.14 and Merit and Forgiveness I; Carthage 418 c. 110. Planned but not yet read: Ambrosiaster on Rom 5:12; Gregory of Nyssa; Theodore of Mopsuestia; Cyril of Alexandria on Rom 5; Maximus the Confessor; John of Damascus II.30. Cross-links: salvation S1–S2 and baptism B2.
2. Verdicts and trace
Weighed under the source-proximity principle: Scripture first, then the father tiers T1–T4. Verdict changes are listed in docs/proximity-changes.md.
3. Post-750 development
4. Overall verdict
Split by region. On O2 and O4 the Orthodox follow the Greek fathers, and the Catholic follows Augustine and Cyprian. Lutheran and Presbyterian sharpen Augustine, the Presbyterian most of all. No tradition departs on O1. Confidence: medium–high.
5. Verification status
- Verified: all entries above; Trent V; Dositheus 6; AC II; WCF VI.
- To verify: Ambrosiaster on Rom 5:12; Gregory of Nyssa; Theodore; Cyril of Alexandria; Maximus; John of Damascus II.30; the lexical survey of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ; Romanides; how far Carthage was received in the East; LSB English.
Plan, overall verdict and verification status of the former salvation category (shared with the other doctrines that came from it)
Salvation: grace, free will, predestination, perseverance
Method and conventions: docs/conventions.md. Reasoning: salvation reasoning.
1. Plan
Questions: S1 grace and the beginning of faith; S2 free will; S3 predestination; S4 perseverance and assurance. The ground and form of justification are covered in justification and not repeated here. Sources: Justin, 1 Apol. 43; Irenaeus AH IV.37; Origen, De Principiis III.1; Cassian, Conf. 13; Augustine, Predestination of the Saints, Gift of Perseverance, Rebuke and Grace; Orange 529. Planned but not yet read: Prosper, Call of All Nations; Chrysostom on Rom 9; John of Damascus II.25–30; Gottschalk (post-750). Scripture: Rom 8–9; Eph 1–2; John 6, 10; Phil 1:6, 29; Heb 6:4–6; 1 Tim 2:4.
2. Verdicts and trace
Weighed under the source-proximity principle: Scripture first, then the father tiers T1–T4. Verdict changes are listed in docs/proximity-changes.md.
3. Post-750 development
4. Overall verdict
Catholic closest overall (Orange plus Trent canons 4 and 15–17 follow Augustine closely on S4). Lutheran is close on S1, S3 and S4. Orthodox is closest on S2 and the earlier S3 line. Presbyterian departs on S4 and on double predestination. Confidence: medium. S3 is split, and the Greek fathers are thinly verified.
5. Verification status
- Verified: Justin, Irenaeus, Cassian, Augustine (3 works), Orange c. 5, Trent VI cc. 4 and 15–17, Dositheus 3, FC SD XI.8, WCF III.3 and XVII.1.
- To verify: Origen III.1 detail and Comm. Rom. 8:29; the conclusion of Orange; Prosper; Chrysostom on Rom 9; John of Damascus II; Luther, Bondage of the Will; FC on the regenerate falling away; LSB English.